School boards succesfully lobbied the legislature to pass Act 38 of 2002, which deferred pension costs to the future (now).

More specifically, in 2002 after actuaries recommended raising the employer contribution rate from 1.09% to 5.64%, it was later foolishlly reduced to only 1.15% of payroll after complaints from school boards and other lobbying groups about raising the rate by and "unprecedented" 460%. Unprecedented my foot - the contribution rate was close to 20% for most of the early 1990's. It didn't have to go that high again, but probably will now after the extended pension cost holiday that both the state and local districts enjoyed.

At the time (in 2002), I commented publicly about how that this would be disasterous, both at an EPSD school board meeting and also in the MC letters to editor page, not to mention several other school boards, including some in other counties. I was shocked by this action since the normal pension cost was about 8%, but people were complaining about 5%, and I could see trouble coming down the road. I even suggested that the money saved by avoiding contributions should be reserved rather than being spent, but of course that didn't happen.

Don't blame the teachers or school boards, blame your elected legislature. In 2001, the legislature raised the teacher's pensions by 25%. The real reason that they did this was to attach a provision onto the bill that raised their pensions by 50%.

When school boards raised concerns about the increase, they then passed another irresponsible bill (Act 38) to defer the day of reckoning for their unfunded pension grab.

This is another good comment. Totally agree

I'll go with 2-6, although. However, we need to avoid #1 like the plague...do we really want large consolidated behemoth school districts dominated by cities that will suck funds away from nicer school districts? Yes, there may be some benefit to consolidation, but it would be totally offset by the loss of local control of schools, as well as the inefficiencies inherent to any type of large organization. I'd rather have a small, well run school district that listens to local residents than a monster with multiple levels of management heads that answers to no one.

amen

A problem with the only real state-level revenue increase proposal that I've seen so far (the Delaware/corporate loophole) is that depending on which estimate you believe, is that it will produce only about $250-500 million on the $30 billion general budget, or less than 1-2%. Plus it may actually have negative repurcussions.

The only real solution for more state revenue is to increase either the sales tax or the personal income tax. Those two revenue sources are about 2/3 of the state's general budget, and dwarf everything else. Thus, either a 1% sales tax increase or a 0.6% increase in the personal income tax still would provide only about $1.8 billion or about 6% of the state's general budget, and one of those still might not be enough to do what some people posting here want. Which would you suppport?

Sounds like sour grapes. How much should a teacher be paid? As much as a parent who is not involved in his kid's education and is a loser who makes $40k? Should they paid as much as a wall street executive who loses billions and takes money out every taxpayers pocket but gets a bonus so that his yearly compensation can pay for all the teachers salaries in SLSD. It seems to me the loser taxpayers should work to earn what teachers do rather than bring down people more successful than them.
Don't blame Corbett. He told us he would rob the middle class blind. We taxpayers voted to be robbed. What is the bitch?

How much should teachers be paid? Less than the people they work for which is the taxpayer. If they dont like it, they can find a different job. When the average teacher is making 50% more than the median income of the state, *plus* a far better benefits package, where exactly do you think the money is going to come from? Maybe you should volunteer to pay a much heftier chunk of tax to support teachers salaries and pensions since you arent one of the "losers" who only make $40k?

Also, its a fallacy that parents are "uninvolved". If that guy sounds like he has sour grapes, you sound like a jaded and cynical teacher who is envious because everyone else is "so rich" while you're "stuck" "only" making 50% more than the median income on the taxpayers dime while you do a *mediocre job at best*. PA schools arent well ranked nationally so these school boards are burning through money and under performing. Only civil servants on the dole have that luxury. The "loser" making $40k gets fired the minute he fails to perform.

OK, we get it......you're a tea party shill.

Just to educate you. Per capita income is based on every man, woman, and child in the area, regardless of age. Therefore, using it to compare it to a salary is an invalid comparision.

Thanks for the tea party perspective bill. When are you fine folks going to go after the real wasteful spending in this country? How many countries are we going to invade and rebuild? Glad to see the House of Reps. will not allow the military to be cut since it is only bigger than the next 15 countires combined. Perhaps more subsidies to the oil industry? How about that senior perscription drug program we have never been able to pay for? Go get those educators a what for Bill!

Makes for great politcs though doesn't it Carol? Gee what an outrage. All us hard workin people making 20 grand while some of those lazy instructors got a house in the Hamptons!

Bill,
The costs for benefits for teachers in the East Penn School district is 44% over salary. So take all the numbers that you have for teacher and administrator costs and multiply by 1.44 to get the true cost of a militantly unionized workforce that uses our kids as pawns and owns the democratic party.

Ok Carol and others lets compare the median teachers salary to the median household income. The median teachers salary is $59,534 and the median household income which is for the whole family is $45,234. So teachers still make nearly $15,000 more than the average person in Northampton County and they only work 8 months of the year so they make alot more than the average taxpayer plus they get a full pension and benefits. The taxpayer doesn't get benefits and a pension either which costs the tax payers another $50,000 a year per teacher. Teachers just have to show up to get paid theres no performance standards unlike in the real world where you have to show why you have a job. Teachers get a pay raise every year just for showing up and you wonder why the kids today are illiterate and lazy. Growing up I had good teachers the teachers today are lazy and spoiled. Their outrageous salaries are unsustainable and will force the school district to keep laying teachers off until we have 50 kids in a classroom. I'm going to laugh when these teachers go to retire and they are told sorry we don't have enough to pay you your full pension. I hope these teachers are saving for the future and not depending on their pensions. By the way I'm an independent I'm not a tea party member just a tax payer and parent from Easton.

Bill,
You said: "Growing up I had good teachers the teachers today are lazy and spoiled." My boys both have teachers who are wonderful and dedicated, please do not make ignorant generalizations. Not all teachers today are "lazy and spoiled", just like not all seniors are not all curmudgeons who never want their taxes raised, even at the expense of others. Small-minded generalizations make you look just that...

@sugarmagnolia I bet your kids don't go to Easton Area Schools do they???

The situation in Easton is worse than almost anywhere else. They have an untenable and unsustainable PSEA contract that has 6+% raises and an intransient union that refuses to budge.

Teachers only have to show up to get paid, there are no performance standards? We get observed atleast twice a year and our observations are based on student performance on the PSSA tests.

Ok median income per northampton county famil is $45,234 and the median salary for a teacher in easton is $59,534. Is that better??? Teachers still make nearly $15,000 more per year in which they only work 8 months. Plus they get a full pension and great benefits and pay very little for them. All paid by us the taxpayers and to make things worse most of the teachers in easton live outside the district. All public employees should have to live in the district they work for it helps create a better community.

So tell us specifically what you want to cut. Specifically.

Jim, please try to keep things civil. I find it offensive for you to assume that people who support smaller government are "tea party crazies". Just because you have a difference of opinion does not make you sane and them nuts.

Jim Obviously you have no idea about economics do you???? If you increase taxes on gas companies they pass it on to you the consumer. Businesses do not pay taxes they collect them. Only consumers pay taxes. Thats economics 101. I would go into teaching but theres no jobs. Easton laid off 70 teacher and support jobs in 2010-11, 102 in 2011-12, and who knows how many will be laid off in 2012-13. In case you haven't figured out property taxes are raised because of the school needing more money to pay the overpaid teachers not for anything else. In order for teachers to get raises they need to bring in more tax revenue and the only way to do that is raise taxes. So blame the teachers and their unions not Gov. Corbett. You know what the sad thing is people like you that have no brain. You socialist morons think teachers and other public employees should make 6 figure salaries and figure how to pay for it later. Get off your high horse Jim or you will be knocked off. By the way I'm not a tea party member I'm a independent voter unlike people like you I vote for the best candidate and not party line.

Bill obviously you did not take economics 102. There iare supply and demand curves. If every state charges a depletion tax except Pa it does not mean we pay less for energy. It means the company gets more money. Business pay taxes. Passing on to the consumer is only possible if they are more efficient than their competitor. You do not vote for the best person-- you vote for someone you thiink is best. Given your rationalizations here, I don't think that you can discern who is the best candidate.

Both Bill and Limeport are right concerning severance tax. If one state didn't have a severance tax, then it's drillers will pocket that money since they could charge the same higher price for their product without the additional cost. However, Bill would be right if all states charged a similar severance tax and if there was no other supply of gas. Unfortunately neither of those is the case.

Mr. DiPalma....excellent post. Thank you. The reality is as you state: this Commonwealth can run on minimums with what we call a 'jam it down your throat's tax. These funds come from workers EIT, biz taxes, and a number of other sources taxpayers just can not get out of...plain and simple. The rest of the taxes paid become optional. BUT...if the state government were to move to an increased sales tax on everything and lower or eliminate direct property taxes...the state government has given people a choice. I would feel more respected with this form of replacement property taxes...just like driving a car; if I want to drive...I pay the tax, or privilege, to do so, and therefore I have roads to drive on. BUT...respect and government NEVER share the same sentence...not in PA...and certainly not in this century. We need smaller more efficient government. There is simply no other way. We've hit our apex. We are all on the down swing now. Something has got to give.

Why is it that we have become Americans who want less? One could say that my husband is a loser but can redeem himself by organizing to get a decent pension and health benefits. I am sure the executives in his company don't pay 50% of their healthcare costs. Teachers have taken a big hit in this economy. You voted for the people who made this mess. Deal with it by taking responsibility rather than by putting others down!

Teachers pay 7.5% of their salary into the pension fund. How much do those in the private sector with defined benefit pensions pay into their plans?

You tea party people crack me up. I know many tea party zealots who are collecting private sector defined benefit pensions that they did not pay into AND Social Security. They fight like mad at the mere suggestion of cutting their pension or Social Security benefits. However, they have no problem with corporations or government cutting the benefits of people who have paid into the funds so they can save a few bucks on taxes. For some reason, the concept of a promise or contract only applies when it is beneficial to them.

Limeport Resident, I don't consider people who rely on unions to better themselves to be winners, like you seem to do.
And I don't want less. I want to see people think out of the box and do more with what they already have.
And I am not putting anyone down. I have a daughter who is considering going into teaching so I also have a vested interest in what teachers make. But I am also a taxpayer who wants to make sure that my (and your) hard earned tax dollars are not wasted!

And, Carol, you are responding to my post so I am assuming that you assume that I am a "Tea Party person". I am not. I just want to see more reasonable oversight on how my taxes are spent and smaller government. Please stop throwing around names and labels. They are not helpful if finding answers to this country's problems and only serve to divide us.

Teachers pay 1.15 of their pay for their benefits which covers them and their families. They also get these benefits when they retire as well. It use to be in our country if you worked for the government you made less salary but got great benefits but today government workers enjoy great benefits plus better pay than their private sector counterparts. It costs EASD on average $55 per hour to pay the average teacher. The top 10% of teachers cost EASD $75 per hour. These figures include their benefits and pensions. If you take their benefits out the average teacher makes about $40 per hour and the top 10% of teachers makes $60 per hour.

Rosemary teachers pay $650 a year for their medical and dental benefits. They take it out in 26 installmnents of $25. I just found that in the teachers union contract with the school board. It can be found here
http://www.openpagov.org/k12_payroll.asp

ooh! That must be nice for the teachers! Our family has more then that taken out for medical and dental in 2 months!

Thank you, Bill for listing this link (http://www.openpagov.org/k12_payroll.asp)! And to everyone else, keep up the dialog! It's a fabulous (and free) learning tool for those of us just trying to figure out what's really going on.

Interesting premise! Seems you are advocating that the same baby boomers you have such disdain for because they made wrong decisions, be mandated to make decisions now that they are becoming senile. What a plan! Only in America.

So they believe that their grandchildren don't have the same right to a quality education that their children did. Others paid to help education their children, now it's time for them to return the favor. Just like the author said, school taxes are paying for your education and your children's education amortized over your adult life.

In regards to sports and other activites: I think we should require these participants to pay fees and engage in fund raising to offset the costs. However, I would not advise eliminating them totally. Many students do well in school because they find themselves in these activities. Also, these activities are often not a very significant part of the budget (usually less than 1%).

Good point Carol. They should also remember all of the tax payer funded programs workers pay to seniors. Look at what the Bush Sr. presecription drug plan has done to the federal budget.

What you are not realizing is that the state is increasing unfunded mandates such as special education requirmements, cyber charter/charter school costs above what it costs to educate public school students, standardized testing requirements, staff training programs etc. and then they cut state funding such as block grants. It is not all about salary. Investigate the problem further. You have the tea party angle down with the salary now you need to look at unfunded mandates and decreases from the state that used to fund 50-50 with districts and now is getting closer to 80-20 in many places.

Truth Seeker...you, as one of a few on here that keep pointing fingers and screaming...TEA PARTY...TEA PARTY.....let it be known I am the furthest thing from such a name. I am a taxpayer. I am a taxpayer at the end of my rope in paying more and more and getting less and less. I am a taxpayer tired of the backroom politics that Pennsylvania has become known for and I could kick my parents and their parents in the ass for letting this state government get away with as much as they have over the last 50 years to allow us to be faced with the issues we are faced with today. The Commonwealth Constitution says nothing about legislative pensions. The legislators added it on their own! The Constitution says our legislation is charged with developing, funding, and maintaining a public education system...and they have thoroughly screwed that up to the point where taxpayers are claiming bankruptcy because they can not afford to pay into the system. So if you want to keep calling those that are sick and tired of getting the short end of the stick a TEA PARTY...TEA PARTY....have at it! Just don't hand me a musket or long rope with a noose or those in Harrisburg will see exactly what the TEA PARTY is all about!

They do need to look at all activity costs. I know of one school district that recently rented the road show set for their school play and rented all their costumes to the tune of about $50,000 for those two things alone. I am a huge supporter of the arts and I know better than most what it costs to put on live theater and how important it is to many students, but I don't think they need to spend money like THIS. And what do the kids learn from this? Just make a phone call and write a check?

Mr. DiPalma....you make yet another good point. The only problem is the manner in which we would need to get together to fight this. There are teachers on here I am sure. In order to lower property taxes...they will take a hit to their salaries or pensions. No one wants to take a hit to anything today. I can see where they say...wait a minute...why should I join a group of people that want to cut my pay and benefits? The problem is...they may not have a choice in the matter AND the district may do it anyway....PLUS they, themselves, may continue to pay skyrocketing costs for a job they no longer have. This is the way our legislators like things to be constructed; so that it completely throws any possible taxpayer rebuff into total confusion. We, taxpayers, can not organize ourselves into a formidable group to tell those in the legislature; no, we don't want that. They did it with the PAYGRAB or 2005 when they 'bought' their way in by handing the judges a 30% pay increase when they gave themselves one...they were hoping to get away with it. Just as they did back in 2002 when they gave all the teachers a 25% increase to 'buy their votes'. What the teachers did not realize...the legislators 'used' them to give themselves a 50% increase! Until we can find a way to gather together and form a formidable force against our elected officials...they will win every time. It is the way they build their bills and laws...that is how they do it. Sucker someone along to justify it.

@Greg - good point. The oldest boomers are just turning 65 this year; whilst the youngest are only 47, and many of those still have kids in school, some even in primary gradesl! Maybe we should be trashing the really old codgers here.......or the impetuous youth like Heid and Stolz!

Corbett will never let Grover Norquist down. He will not agree to a tax hike. He should at least agree to restore some of the cut funds since the revenues are higher than expected, colse the Delaware loophole, delay or end corporate tax breaks, get rid of many unfunded mandates to school districts, and support cyber charter/charter reforms. This would be a great start.

Corbett will never close corporate loopholes, etc.

He is beholden to those who fund his Party and election, just like the Democrats are beholden to the unions and trial lawyers who fund theirs.

Not even close. Charters and Cyber Charters are putting a huge hole in district budgets and that comes back to haunt taxpayers. For profit operations are seriously overcharging and many schools are using the money in illegal ways (Pocono Mt. Charter and Vitalistic). A bunch of these schools are under investigation and the vast majority have terrible test scores. Our auditor General has sounded numerous warnings. I should mention that some charters which are not for profit and that have unique curriculums as opposed to simply duplicating public schools deserve a lot of credit.

Show me something from an independent source, not a group that contributed to Corbett's campaigns and profits from his charter school policies.

Charters can take the students that they want and do not have to provide special ed services, educate disruptive students, or accommodate students with specials needs. In addition, the public school still provides, lunches, busing, extracurriculars, and other support to the charter students. Despite all of these advantages, charter test scores are no better than public schools.

Charters in Philly are also full of mismanagement, corruption, and unaccountable funds.
Charters have already proven that they are not the answer to the educational issues facing us.

I would assume that children who are sent to charter schools are sent there because they are struggling in the public school setting. It does not surprise me that their test scores are lower then the public school averages. I am sure the top tier students stay at the public schools where they are already thriving. It does not mean that the charter school is not best meeting the needs of these kids and helping these kids be all that God intended them to be, as individuals. From the research I have done, it seems that Philly is the exception and that their charters are out performing the public schools on test scores. Sadly, that is not the case in Pittsburgh.

In East Penn SD, there is an anomaly compared to the national political trend. Many of the free spenders are actually Republicans whilst many of the tightwads are Democrats. If I've offended anyone, please note that the converse is not true and that in any case I used a non-exclusive adjective to describe the two groups.

In East Penn you have 2 groups:
1) A group who seeks a ballance between education and spending
2) A group that wants no money spent on public education
I had some sympathy for the 2nd group until I saw their last campaign and the nonsense they continue to spew.

Bill- show me where I called the tea party crazies. You can't, because I didn't.

It seems that you have issues with comprehension as well as the facts. When you are confronted with the truth, you resort to name calling, the standard act of those whose views can not be intellectually supported. I am capable of independent thought, not an echo any party's talking points. You may disagree, but my arguments are supported by values and facts.

For your information, I did not vote for Obama. I believe that both parties are only interested in lining their pockets and perpetuating their existence. In order to do that, they use taxes to buy campaign contributions and votes. In the case of education, Rendell paid off the trial lawyers and teacher's unions. Corbett is now paying off the charter operators. Both parties signed off on the pension bills to enrich themselves. NO ONE is addressing the root problems of public education in PA, most of which they created.

The discussion needs to be centered on the greater good instead of greed and personal interests. Until that paradigm shift occurs, the money may shift, but nothing will improve.

Carol, you are right. You did not call us "Tea Party Crazies". You called us "Tea Party Zealots"

"You tea party people crack me up. I know many tea party zealots who are collecting private sector defined benefit pensions that they did not pay into AND Social Security."

Like I've said before, more name calling that seeks to divide people and keeps problems from being solved.

And, Bill, I admire your courage in ID-ing yourself, but I have knowledge of a situation where someone's boss was called because of their views voiced here. You and I both know there are crazy and desperate people on these boards. People need to be careful. Your views, conservative or liberal, can lead to discrimination, or worse. I would hate for my husband's or my job to be put in jeopardy because of things I say here. That is why I protect my identity. And I suspect that is why others do as well. It is not a reason to insult us or to treat our opinions as any less valid.

Rosemary B I wasn't attacking or insulting you I am asking people who make up fake names to use their real names. It doesn't have to be their last name what you did is fine. Just a first name is good but stuff like truth seeker and everything else is silly. Plus you aren't the one calling names these nuts are that are making fake names up. They insult everyone and hide behind their computers.

zeal·ot   [zel-uht]
noun
1. a person who shows zeal.

How is that insulting? Are you not showing zeal for your views? Are you sensitivite, or are you just out of valid points?

I'm sorry, Carol, I just don't think labeling each other is helpful. It just pigeon holes us into stereotypes and it is simply distracting from the real issues.

This is a lie. Corbett and the GOP majority have moved mandatory constiutional pension payments into overalll educational spending. In the past it was always counted seperate. He cut another 100 mllion in block grants as well as all kinds of other pre-K programs that are well known to pay off for students/taxpayers in the future because they reduce the need for special education and juvenile crime. Give the Senate credit for restoring some of these funds.

Of course he made cuts. There is no money. Are all you liberals so math challenged?

what is your source Bill? I want both numbers please.

The lowest paid teacher in Easton makes $42,000 and like I said before the highest makes $82,000. Thats insane and you people defend them and wonder why we have a budget crisis every year. Plus their benefits only adds to the fire. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Either teachers keep their bloated salaries or they keep their great benefits. The taxpayers cannot afford to pay both nor should we.

So what do you and the teabaggers think the salary range should be? Anything else out there you guys feel tax money is being wasted on besides public workers and their families? I have some problems supporting occupation of middle east countries, foreign aide to those who want to kill us, and subsidies to industries that are raking in huge profits. But that's just me, pherhaps with some proper instruction from you I could be anti-teacher as well. Thanks for the website I've seen it. Take me to the spot where it shows how high Easton teachers are paid being to[p 25% if you get a chance.

and don't forget who approved those salaries and pay increases.... Publicly voted school board members. Tell me why that salary is insane? The cost to go to a 4 year college just to get a BS degree to be able to teach cost me 30K a year. Plus turning that temporary license into a permanent license after 6 years costs several thousand dollars, not to mention if you get a masters or doctorate. Most of the times when grads spend that type of money they come out of college making 82K a year from day 1.

James welcome to the real world let me guess I bet you think only teachers have student loans. I got my BA in accounting and my first few years I made 35,000 a year until I got my CPA license. I worked 60 hours a week making $35,000 now I'm making $65,000 working 60 hours plus. I don't have a pension and I pay $750 a month for my benefits. Do you know how much it cost me to get my CPA license??? Unlike teachers in the real world we don't get remibursed by our employer. In Easton teachers have it written into their contracts that they get reimbursed for continuing education and and license fees. Teachers work less than 1500 hours a year. Full time in the private sector is 2080 hours a year (40x52). Another problem I have is most of the teachers don't live within Easton. I think public servants which teachers are should be required to live where they teach to better the community. I'd like to see teachers live in the real world.

You have to do the work. Its all there for you to do since you want to question my comment. All the information is there lazy.

Bill is right that the amount of student debt one accrues should not be a basis of how much anyone should be paid. It should be on benefit to society. Bill seems to be making the case for higher teachers salaries when he says that someone who learns the difference between LIFO and FIFO and proves it in a test, can run a computer to add a bunch of numbers, be paid higher by finding creative ways to mislead stockholder and investors a la Enron, and has no other value can be paid $60K. Shouldn't teachers who train young people to become doctors, physicians, engineers, scientists, and even philosophers, all of whom provide higher value to society be paid more? Off course they should take a hit for training future politicians so poorly, but to have their salaries below that of a CPA? Go back to how much is training our future hope worth? Lets cut CPA salaries at IRS and give it to teachers.

Nice try. Their salaries arent lower, they're actually much higher. Why? Because Bill works 2080 hrs per year *minimum* and has crap benefits.

Teachers work 8 months and have *amazing* benefits.

But lets break it down in terms maybe any of you who want infinitely increasing teachers salaries (presumably you're teachers), can possibly wrap your minds around.

If the Bill's of PA, in their legions, are making $65k and *that* is above the median, how exactly do you feel that teachers should make *more*? Magic money? Print it? Maybe you folks should give 100% of your income to a teacher. Oh wait, thats right. I strongly suspect that anyone here taking the point opposite Bill *is* a teacher.

I 'get it'. You've got GREAT gigs and want to preserve them. Guess what? All of us, the taxpayers (you know, your BOSSES that you arent remotely accountable to) used to have great gigs too. Now we dont. We earn less and less every year. Guess what that means? Show is over. Why? The millionaires and billionaires use private schools and tax loopholes. They pay pretty much $0 and dodge taxes any way they can. This means that its time to accept that as the ship of the middle class sinks, you're going to be sinking with it.

And of course to cap it all off, PA provides mediocre public education *at best* while providing TOP pay. Utterly ridiculous.

Pay is based on supply and demand in every other area of the economy. There are TONS of extra teachers in PA. The supply is MASSIVE. If you could put an ad in the paper and pay a teacher what they would be willing to take in the market (like everybody else), gym teachers would make $25,000 a year. Getting a teaching degree is EASSSSYYYYY. Every kid who can't figure out what they want to do just shuffles off to Millersville or Kutztown and gets an easy teaching certificate. And Masters degrees for teachers are a JOKE. They are FAR EASIER to get as compared to an MBA, or MS in science or engineering or accounting. Let's quit pretending that teachers are geniuses. Any average HS graduate with 1000 on the SAT's (old two part SAT) can become any type of teacher he/she wants. AND ONCE AN FOR ALL, lets stop this joke where we call them "professionals" and compare them to doctors and lawyers. Only 1% of teachers would have a shot at getting into medical school or law school. Probably not even 1%.

Bill - how about a starting cardiologist at over $300K/yr? Oncologist, dermatologist, almost any medical specialist -- they all make over $100k (BY A LARGE AMOUNT). Family physicians make $100K/yr starting or just slightly less depending on the practice. PhD engineers make $80K-$100/yr starting. MBa's from an Ivy league make ~$100K/yr but an MBA from lesser schools are barely able to find a job. You are paid what you are worth! Why should a CPA make $80K -- it is bad for the books. I can easily replace him with a $40K salary that can do a better job since he is likely be more current in accounting practice.Hopely, a teacher taught you how to add so that you are a competent CPA.

Your calculatuion for hours worked is flawed. Believe it or not they do a hell pof a lot of work outside of those hours some of which are required and some of which are needed for correcting, preperation, curriculum development, clasrrom set up etc. And to claim teachers make more than lawyers and accountans shows how desperate you are to bash teachers. Accountants and lawyers have a range of salaries but tons of them make a lot more than teachers. Also, you are going by teachers at the top of the salary at the end of their careers. Looking at the way you work, it's no suprise that so many accountants milsead investors and taxpayers until it is too late.

Most professionals do work many hours besides 9-5. 50 hours per week is not unusual for a professional, and if teachers want to be deemed as professionals as opposed to blue-collar union workers, they should expect the same. On the other hand, anyone who needs to work more rroutinely than 50 hours per week (except on occasional special projects) is either ineffective or inefficient, and perhaps should be counselled to do something else. Otherwise you life will suck, and the effect will be felt by your clientelle.

Rob glad to see we can agree on some things.

TS I think we agree on alot more than shows, its just how to get there........ something has to change. A little here and there and EVERYWHERE or slash and burn at some point. I can give you a list of GREAT teachers I had that never got the money or benefits that (some) of the current space taking teachers get. They did it because they enjoyed it.

Good teachers might deserve $100,000 a yr to start, but that does not mean that it is possible to pay them that. We have to live in the realm of reality. Reality is there is only so much money and only so much you can tax people here in Pa. And reality is that there is a HUGE supply of teachers, Those two realities dictate that maybe teachers should be getting less.

Maybe not 100,000 to start. But I'd get the truely great up there fairly quickly with 10-20% increases. Unfortunately the union contracts don't allow that, and they don't allow you to limit the increases for the below average to hekp counsel them to leave.

And those are some of the reasons why union contracts do not work. They treat all workers as if they are worth the same. No incentive to try harder than the next person. Breeds mediocrity.